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A 4 Skyhawk

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  • #91
    Re: A 4 Skyhawk

    En algun momento del 2013 salió publicada la noticia que la FAA buscaba el C-295 y la compra de armamento israelí para los Pampa (imagino que para el Pampa GT), los A-4AR y Mirage. Como la expectativa de los Mirage no daba para mucho más, se hablaba de los Kfir y pensamos que era para ellos, quedando los A-4AR y Pampa GT como posibles receptores.

    Hoy, a casi 4 años, vemos que lo que avanzó de aquello, es el tema del C-295 y el tema del armamento de israel quedó en suspenso que como depende mucho de la operatividad de los SdA (Mirage dado de baja, Kfir no concretado y repuestos de A4AR tampoco y el Pampa GT por ahora solo está en el tablero de dibujo) no ha avanzado nada desde entonces.
    Julio Gutièrrez
    Administrador del Foro
    Aviacionargentina.net

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    • #92
      Re: A 4 Skyhawk

      Es el mismo escenario de hoy en dia..el poco criterio para analizarlo a lo largo de un tiempo en que lo vas a operar..
      Nos gustava la idea de un avion conocido A-4 con sistemas del F-16, pero no entendimos que el Sda no daba mas en el tiempo..el motor fue el limitante en este caso, pero si no eran los generadores iban a ser otra cosa... el A-4 a mediados de los noventa no tenia cuerda su logística.
      Lo MALO ES QUE NO APRENDIMOS DE NUESTROS ERRORES..volvemos a querer cometerlos..pensamos en cortisimo plazo, dado las malas coyunturas que siempre nos toca vivir..hoy nuestro error de mañana , va a ser el Kfir..que siendo un avión de "transición" cosa que dudo, si llegamos a comprarlo, dentro de 10 años no vamos a conseguir nada del J-79, por mas que digan que si,van a ser carísimo mantenerlo.
      No entendemos el costo total a lo largo del tiempo (costo propietario), el de un Kfir es caro que por ejemplo un F-16 que compremos (ex- guardia nacional texas por ejemplo). Este último, con sistemas modernos sin necesidad de hacerle nada, te va a durar mas de el triple que el Kfir, y por ende la amortización por año es mucho mas baja...el Kfir se tiene que amortizar a lo sumo en 10 años..el F-16 el 30..quien piensan que va a ser mas barato?
      Por último..va allegar un momento que nos vamos a tener que poner los pantalones largos, y entrar en la 4ta generación, y adaptar la FAA a los Sda modernos..no adaptar los Sda a la obsoleta FAA de hoy.

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      • #93
        Re: A 4 Skyhawk

        Como insistís con el F-16....¿cuantas veces lo ofrecieron y siempre dijeron NO? apuntá para otro lado con tus análisis.

        Borrá al F-16 de tu lista de candidatos, porque ya van por la 5ta cúpula que busca excusas para no tenerlo como opción. El caza que busca la FAA para reemplazar al Mirage es otro delta o de última como stop-gap algún LIFT. NO el F-16.

        Y no somos los únicos que no lo quieren, tenés a Brasil (que le dieron todas las oporrunidades para incorporarlo y la FAB siempre les dijo que NO) Perú y Colombia que tienen el "Plan Colombia" y lo pueden traer gratis y en su lugar prefirieron el Kfir del que ya lleva muchos años en servicio y le extendieron el plazo para permanecer en la FAC, pese a las presiones de empresas yankies y lobbystas colombianos para incorporar el F-16
        Editado por última vez por Pisciano; https://www.aviacionargentina.net/foros/member/3-pisciano en 15/01/17, 21:42:12.
        Julio Gutièrrez
        Administrador del Foro
        Aviacionargentina.net

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        • #94
          Re: A 4 Skyhawk

          Perdón por el OT pero quiero saber como se las arreglan en Chile con estos aviones, dieron buenos resultados o "las priedritas son un cuento chino". PD: quiero al Mirage 2000 y Rafale para nuestra FAA
          Patria o muerte.

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          • #95
            Re: A 4 Skyhawk

            Originalmente publicado por NekuAR Ver Mensaje
            Perdón por el OT pero quiero saber como se las arreglan en Chile con estos aviones, dieron buenos resultados o "las priedritas son un cuento chino". PD: quiero al Mirage 2000 y Rafale para nuestra FAA
            No sé si es por las piedritas o lo complejo de mantener, pero no es un avión que haya atraido a la región. Brasil, Ecuador Perú y Colombia no lo quisieron tampoco, además de Argentina.

            En Chile los F-16 tienen base en el Norte, no en el sur, allí hay F-5E Tiger III Plus. La zona más dificil de operar es en la patagonia (tanto argentina como chilena). Los chilenos hicieron pruebas en el sur del pais y lo operaron unos días para sacar conclusiones. Creo que la llegada de los KC-135 le solucionaron problemas para poder desplegarlos en el sur.

            El Rafale es imposible para nosotros (salvo que ocurra el diluvio universal y un cambio de 180º de nuestra forma de percibir la defensa nacional) pero el horizonte tecnológico a futuro es tratar de obtener un Gripen "desbritanizado". Pero por el momento no pasa de una idea. Hoy tenemos la prioridad de recuperar la capacidad aire-aire con un supersónico dentro de este período de gobierno (2016-2020)
            Editado por última vez por Pisciano; https://www.aviacionargentina.net/foros/member/3-pisciano en 15/01/17, 23:14:46.
            Julio Gutièrrez
            Administrador del Foro
            Aviacionargentina.net

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            • #96
              Re: A 4 Skyhawk

              Originalmente publicado por NekuAR Ver Mensaje
              Perdón por el OT pero quiero saber como se las arreglan en Chile con estos aviones, dieron buenos resultados o "las priedritas son un cuento chino". PD: quiero al Mirage 2000 y Rafale para nuestra FAA
              Un cuento chino de proporciones. Veinte y cinco (25) Fuerzas Aéreas del mundo refutan absolutamente el punto.

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              • #97
                Re: A 4 Skyhawk

                No importa lo que opine cada fuerza aerea, lo que importa es la opinion de la nuestra y es negativa. Punto.

                Es un gran caza, pero por muchos motivos a la Argentina no le conviene.
                Julio Gutièrrez
                Administrador del Foro
                Aviacionargentina.net

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                • #98
                  Re: A 4 Skyhawk

                  Hola..yo sigo con la idea de un avión de 4ta generación..no me cierro con solo F-16..si viniese un M2K-mk2 bienvenido sea..al igual que el J-10B..el tema es que el problema , es que queremos adaptar el avión , a la FAA obsoleta.
                  Entiendo la postura de la falta de presupuesto..pero lo que quiero que se entienda, es que el Kfir es aceptable para el corto plazo, nada mas, y estos pocos años que podrá prestar servicio, van a ser caros igual.

                  Entiendo los limitantes de los F-16 es-USAF..y los cuales hacen que pienses 2 veces adquirirlos..es entendible..pero si los compras 0kms no los tenes..pensemos en el F-16 de la FACH Block 50...esos pueden utilizar todas las armas de israel, y las nuevas versiones pueden reabastecerse de los KC-130... yo no me cierro solo a Gripen (que por cierto me gusta mucho), siempre pienso que debe haber dos lineas logísticas..brasilera/sueca y Norteamericana..

                  En cuanto a Colombia, estuvo analizando el reemplazo de los Kfir..pero acuérdense que antes de la Paz con las FARC, su hipótesis estaba en tierra con estos...ahora con Venezuela y sus SU-30 es evidente que les quedan cortos, a pesar de que son "protectorado" del gran país del norte.

                  En cuanto a operar en el sur los F-16..es cuento... no sigamos con lo de las piedritas..estos operan en todas las latitudes..en chile estan en el norte..por que es su zona mas caliente.

                  Por ultimo...con el PBI que tiene argentina, estando en el G-20 es inentendible que no se pueda operar aunque fuese 10/12 aviones de 4ta generación usados.. no hay voluntad política..en función de eso,yo no claudico en el reclamo de lo que es lógico para la FAA.

                  saludos

                  PD: dicen que salen licitaciones de los A-4AR para repuestos...esperemos que se obtengan los suficientes..

                  Comentario


                  • #99
                    Re: A 4 Skyhawk

                    Douglas A-4 Skyhawk..., el halcón incansable


                    You Needed Grit to Dive On a Target in an A-4 Skyhawk
                    ---The rugged attack jet defined simplicity with a big bomb load---


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                    Modern jet fighters continue to grow ever more complicated and more fantastically expensive. But some of the most influential aircraft in history succeeded instead because they could do their job pretty well at a very reasonable cost. Such was the case of the agile A-4 Skyhawk, a small but heavy-lifting attack jet that would carve out a major place for itself in American history — and also that of Israel and Argentina.
                    In 1952, Douglas aviation engineer Ed Heinemann sought to create a replacement for the Navy’s AD1 Skyraider attack planes. He proposed to replace one of the largest single-engine fighter-bombers ever built with one of the smallest, lightest attack jets ever. At every turn, Heinemann engineered the Skyhawk to reduce weight and complexity, resulting in a combat jet that measured only 12 meters long and weighed only five tons empty.
                    Even the delta wings on the “Tinkertoy Jet” were so small — little over eight meters from one wingtip to wingtip — that they did not need to fold for stowage inside a carrier. This featured, combined with short-takeoff-and-landing performance, made the Skyhawk particularly useful when it entered service in 1956, as the Navy still operated numerous smaller conventionally powered carriers with limited deck space.
                    Powered by a single J65 turbojet engine with two side-mounted air intakes, the Skyhawk proved agile but not especially fast, with a maximum speed of around 670 miles per hour — just below the speed of sound. The early-model Skyhawks lacked a radar for detecting and engaging enemy fighters, but at short range could employ heat-seeking Sidewinder missiles and two 20-millimeter cannons for self-defense.

                    But that was just as well — the Skyhawk’s job was to pound enemy ground targets, and its three hardpoints could lug a hefty maximum bombload of 8-10,000 pounds, which could include nuclear weapons.
                    The Skyhawk was cheap, reliable and effective, so the Navy and Marines ordered hundredsof them, with production eventually totaling at 2,500 in a wide variety of models. In the early 1960s, every U.S. Navy carrier had at least two attack squadrons of Skyhawks; the first nuclear supercarrier had four. The Skyhawk was swiftly improved in the A-4B variant with improved avionics and the capability for air-to-air refueling — not just with tanker aircraft, but even from one Skyhawk to another.
                    The technique eventually fell out of favor as dedicated tankers became available — the tankers were retired at the turn of the century — and so fighter-to-fighter refueling was recently brought back in the Navy’s Super Hornet fighters. The radar-equipped A-4C followed, giving the aircraft bad-weather and night-flying capability.

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                    Above–a U.S. Navy A-4F Skyhawk firing Zuni rockets over Khe Sanh in 1968. At top–a U.S. Navy Skyhawk during a mission over Vietnam in 1970. U.S. Navy photos


                    First and last in the fight for Vietnam

                    On Au. 2, 1964, the destroyer USS Maddox fought a skirmish with North Vietnamese torpedo boats in the Gulf of Tonkin off Vietnam. Two days later, shipboard radar seemed to detect a second attack. In fact, the second attack was later revealed to be a technical glitch — a glitch with historic consequences, as Pres. Lyndon Johnson promptly ordered the first American air strike of North Vietnam, targeting the boat bases and an oil depot in Vinh.
                    Of course, the Navy dispatched its Skyhawks to do the job, and they dropped the first of what would be more than 7.6 million tons of U.S. bombs in Vietnam.
                    These days, U.S. warplanes mostly attack their targets from high altitude using precision-guided weapons, to avoid having to swoop down within range of machine guns and shoulder-fired missiles. But guided air-to-ground weapons were in their infancy in the age of the Skyhawk. Instead, attack planes hit enemy targets by swooping down upon them and releasing old-fashioned gravity bombs above the target, or strafing the target with cannon fire.
                    Getting that close necessarily put in in within reach of abundant and inexpensive automatic flak cannons, which could be quite effective.
                    In the initial strikes at Vinh, flak shot down two A-4s, killing Lt. Richard Sather, while Lt. Junior Grade Everett Alvarez, Jr. managed to eject from his plane — and became the first of hundreds of American pilots to endure years of captivity and torture in North Vietnam. Another participant in the initial raid, future Vice Adm. James Stockdale, who in 1992 ran for the vice presidency alongside Ross Perot, was shot down and captured a year later in 1965.


                    The Skyhawk remained the workhorse of the Navy as Washington escalated its involvement in Vietnam, flying thousands of ground attack sorties and participating in key engagements such as the Battles of Hue and An Loc. New marks of the Skyhawk also showed up — the A-4E and F boasted two additional hardpoints for carrying weapons, more powerful J52 engines, a doppler navigation radar and a targeting computer.
                    The F model in particular introduced a pronounced “hump” behind the cockpit, packed full of avionics. The Skyhawk also began to use greater quantities of guided weapons, including AGM-12 Bullpup missiles and AGM-45 Shrike anti-radar missiles for knocking out Hanoi’s surface-to-air missile defenses.
                    Though introduction of A-7 Corsairs gradually supplanted the A-4 complement on larger carriers, the Skyhawk’s shorter takeoff and landing distance guaranteed its continued service on smaller carriers as well as in Marine aviation units, which deployed the A-4s to forward air bases.

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                    U.S. Navy Skyhawks attacking a rail bridge at Phuong Dinh, North Vietnam in September 1967. U.S. Navy photo


                    Earlier in the war, A-4s even bumped into North Vietnamese MiG-17s, highly maneuverable cannon-armed fighters that were only slightly faster than the Skyhawk. In a clash on April 1967, a MiG-17 dispatched a Skyhawk. But in a bizarre twist, the next month Lt. Cdr. Theodore Swartz managed to down a MiG-17 using an unguided folding-fin Zuni rocket intended for air-to-ground targets.
                    However, the five-inch rockets were involved in one of the worst carrier accidents in U.S. history, when on July 29, 1967, an electrical surge triggered a Zuni rocket carried onboard an F-4 Phantom that was queued for takeoff on the USS Forrestal. The rocket blasted open the external fuel tanks of a Skyhawk in front of it, spraying jet fuel and debris across the carrier deck, which immediately ignited.
                    A minute later, the fire detonated the thousand-pound bombs carried on the unfortunate Skyhawk, killing most of the trained firefighting crew sent to quell the flames. More than 134 sailors died in the ensuing conflagration and damage-control effort, resulting in an entire squadron’s worth of Skyhawks being burnt to a crisp.
                    One of those lucky to escape alive was a young John McCain, today the sitting senator from Arizona, who had been in the A-4E next in line to the one that detonated. He managed to jump off the nose of his plane as it caught fire and was blasted across the deck by the detonation of the bomb.
                    Four months later, on Oct. 26, 1967, McCain was dropping bombs on a power plant in Hanoi when an SA-2 surface-to-air missile sheared off a wing from his A-4E. The Navy pilot bailed out into Truc Bach Lake in northern Hanoi, whereupon he was captured and went on to endure six years of torture and captivity.

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                    John McCain after being released from captivity, 1973. U.S. National Archives photo


                    By the end of the war, Navy and Marine Skyhawks had flown tens of thousands of combat missions, including 195 destroyed by enemy fire. An air strike delivered by Marine Skyhawks in 1973 is reputed to have been one of the last delivered by U.S. combat aircraft in the Vietnam War.
                    The Skyhawk lingered several more decades in U.S. military service. The Marine Corps was reluctant to part with the reliable ground-support plane. It acquired an advanced A-4M model capable with more powerful engines, extra cannon ammunition, and the hardware to sling early Maverick missiles and laser-guided bombs. These remained active until they were replaced by Harrier jump jets in the 1980s.
                    The Blue Angels acrobatics team also flew used the agile aircraft from 1974 to 1986, replacing much faster but clumsier F-4 Phantoms.
                    The Skyhawk remained a favorite “aggressor” plane in U.S. Navy training exercises because it ironically boasted similar speed and agility to its chief historical foe, the MiG-17. As such, it became a valuable training foil at the Top Gun school, teaching Phantom and Tomcat pilots how to deal with slower but more maneuverable opponents.
                    Combined with its reliability, simplicity and low operating costs — only $3,000 per flight hour compared to $42,000 for an F-15 — the Skyhawk remained popular as a trainer well into the 1990s. Several Skyhawks continued to be flown by private firms in the role of military trainers today.

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                    Israeli A-4N Skyhawks in 2009 before being dismantled. Photo via Wikimedia


                    Eagle of the Middle East

                    As the Vietnam War raged, so did the Arab-Israeli conflicts. The Skyhawk, as usual, was at the forefront of the action.
                    Ninety A-4s — known as in Hebrew as the Ayit, or Eagle — entered the service of the Israeli Air Force in 1967. These were modified into the A-4H variant, which can be distinguished by their a longer-tail pipes — a measure designed to lower the Skyhawk’s infrared signature in the face of heat-seeking missiles. The A-4H also had uprated J52 engines and much harder-hitting 30-millimeter ADEN cannons, as the Israelis placed greater value in strafing runs.
                    In 1973 superior A-4Ms were also purchased and reconfigured to Israeli standards as the A-4N.
                    The Skyhawks served as the IAF’s primary dedicated attack plane during the incessant border skirmishes of the War of Attrition with Egypt. Five of them fell prey to much faster Egyptian MiG-21 jets. However, in May 1970, one Israeli Skyhawk pilot managed to turn the tables on a slower MiG-17 over Lebanon in an decidedly unconventional manner, as recalled by Col. Ezra Dotan:
                    I completed the descent to the MiGs’ altitude and sat on the tail of one of them. I decided to use the fire power of the air-to-ground rocket pod in order to hit the MiG. I shot off a first salvo from both pods, at a range of 50 meters. The rockets went very low and passed under the MiG without the pilot even noticing them. I raised the sights, shot off another salvo, and the MiG disappeared in a great explosion.

                    Dotan went on to bump into another flight of four MiG-17s and chased one of them down to low altitude.
                    I found him exiting one of the wadis with a sharp bank. I was going at about 570 knots, and in order not to pass by him, I turned off everything I could turn off to slow the plane down. I would have spread my ears out to the sides, too, if that could have slowed the plane some more …
                    I pulled up so close to him that I couldn’t even point the nose down at him. He got some distance between us and we started playing cat and mouse: He banks right, I turn to follow. He banks hard to the left — I do the same. At a certain point I shot a burst at him. The bullets ripped off the left wing and the MiG rolled right and rammed into the ground.
                    However, the Skyhawk force suffered in the 1973 Yom Kippur War, as the relatively slow jets were called upon to hammer advancing Egyptian tanks covered by patrolling MiG-21s and long-range SA-6 surface-to-air missile batteries deployed along the Suez Canal.
                    Until Israeli ground forces knocked them out, the SAM batteries reaped a fearsome toll. Israel lost 53 of its roughly 200 Skyhawks in the conflict.

                    Yet despite this rough handling, the old attack jet remained a fixture in the Israeli Air Force for decades to come, and would see further action during the war in Lebanon, where a Skyhawk shot down another MiG-17. The last Israeli Skyhawks, serving largely in a training capacity, were not retired until 2015.

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                    A replica of an Argentinian A4 Skyhawk which was shot down after striking the British frigate HMS ‘Ardent.’ Photo via Wikimedia


                    Bane of the Royal Navy

                    In April 1982, Argentine troops seized the Falkland Islands, known as the Malvinas by Buenos Aires. In response, the United Kingdom dispatched an amphibious task force to take them back. Lacking the naval power to confront the fleet, Buenos Aires flung its land-based fighters at the British warships instead.
                    Argentine Etendard fighters famously sank two ships in the conflict using Exocet anti-ship missiles with a range of 43 miles. But Argentina had only four air-launched Exocets available, and so the brunt of the anti-ship raids had to be performed the old-fashioned way, with its 48 Skyhawks, which included a mixture of A-4Bs and Cs, as well A-4Qs operated by the Argentine Navy.
                    These had defective ejection seats due to a U.S. arms embargo, had little in the way of defensive countermeasures and required multiple refuelings via KC-130 Hercules tankers to even make it to the combat zone.
                    Upon arriving, they would have to brave the firepower of a British fleet bristling with high-altitude Sea Dart surface-to-air missiles and avoid the combat air patrols of Sea Harrier jump jets, then dodge shorter-range Sea Wolf and Sea Cat point-defense missiles in order to drop iron bombs directly on top of warships still equipped with old-fashioned flak cannons and even huge 4.5-inch dual-purpose guns with air bursting shells.
                    Even worse for the Argentine pilots, their bombs were notorious for their faulty fuses, and many failed to detonate even after scoring a direct hit.
                    Despite the long odds, when British troops began landing on the Falklands, the Argentine pilots gave it their all in the Battle of San Carlos starting on May 21. After five days of intense air-sea warfare, nearly half of the Skyhawk force — 22 planes — had been picked off while running the deadly gauntlet. Sea Harriers shot down eight, flak blasted two more, and missiles and accidents claimed the rest.

                    But the A-4s that got through managed to sink the destroyer Coventry and the frigates Antelope and Ardent, as well as crippling the Landing Support Ship Galahad and badly damaging several more destroyers and frigates. The other Argentine aircraft — Dagger fighters and Pucará attack planes — suffered similar losses but inflicted less damage.

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                    A Kuwaiti A-4KU Skyhawk during the Persian Gulf War. U.S. Department of Defense photo


                    The Skyhawk had one more crazy battle ahead, as 29 were in service in the Kuwait Air Force.
                    When Saddam Hussein’s troops stormed the small country on August 2, 1990, the Kuwaiti A-4KUs shot down three helicopters full of Iraqi commandos and strafed the advancing tanks of the Medina Armored division. By the second day of hostilities, the Kuwaiti pilots were taking off from desert roads, as their air bases were damaged by Iraqi bombing.
                    As Kuwait succumbed to invasion, nearly the entire A-4 force then fled to neighboring Saudi Arabia. When an American-led coalition embarked on Operation Desert Storm to liberate Kuwait in 1991, the Kuwaiti Skyhawk flew more than a thousand combat missions in support, losing one jet to a radar-guided missile, though the pilot successfully ejected.
                    One Kuwaiti Skyhawk pilot even had the rare pleasure of blowing up his old office at an air base with a 500-pound bomb.
                    There were several other operators of this kind. Indonesia flew A-4 into combat against insurgents and East Timorese separatists. The Skyhawk also saw more peaceful service with the air forces of Malaysia, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand, the last three of which flew their own unique variants designated the A-4S, G and K respectively.

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                    A Marine A-4E Skyhawk in the 1970s. U.S. Navy photo


                    The Skyhawk’s legacy

                    Argentina and Brazil both continue to operate Skyhawk combat squadrons today. The Brazilian Skyhawks were purchased from the Kuwait Air Force and extensively modernized. For years they served as South America’s last carrier-borne fighters until the decommissioning of the carrier São Paulo — formerly the Foch — in February of 2017.
                    However, the Brazilian Skyhawks, known as AF-1s, have not been retired, nor the upgraded A-4R Fightinghawks serving with the Argentine Air Force.
                    The A-4 exemplified virtues of simplicity and cost-efficiency that have seemingly been forgotten in modern warplane design. It was light and easy to handle, and could deliver a nasty punch at its targets, without being weighed down with capabilities unnecessary for its primary mission.
                    But there is a flipside to the Skyhawk story. Their American, Israeli and Argentine combat pilots flew in an era when attack pilots had to dive into the teeth of fearsome enemy air defenses to deliver their payloads — and it was simply accepted that many would pay a terrible price for their bravery, which did in fact occur.
                    Skyhawks cost around $750,000 to produce each, equivalent to roughly $6 or $7 million in inflation-adjusted dollars. Today, the Pentagon may spend 13 times that price to purchase a single F-35 stealth fighter, with the expectation that said airplane will remain nearly immune to enemy fire in any war not involving a peer opponent.
                    The costs and benefits of that tradeoff bear consideration, but if nothing else, that reality should inspire renewed respect for the combat pilots of aircraft like the Skyhawk, who routinely undertook dangerous missions and suffered heavy losses that today would be deemed unacceptable.
                    ************************

                    Fuente: https://warisboring.com/you-needed-g...n-a-4-skyhawk/

                    Artículo original:
                    The National Interest:
                    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/how-the-4-skyhawk-ruled-the-skies-21967


                    Editado por última vez por Kóshkil; https://www.aviacionargentina.net/foros/member/8016-k%C3%B3shkil en 24/08/17, 18:44:02.

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                    • Re: A 4 Skyhawk

                      Publicidad de la Douglas de fines de los 50, principios de los 60.

                      A 4 a.pdf

                      A 4 b.pdf

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